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Add can(Complex)CarryFlashSuit, no uses yet#2258

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blkerby merged 3 commits intovg-json-data:masterfrom
kjbranch:carry-flash
Aug 25, 2025
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Add can(Complex)CarryFlashSuit, no uses yet#2258
blkerby merged 3 commits intovg-json-data:masterfrom
kjbranch:carry-flash

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What do you think of these placements? Do you think bomb jump water escape should be part of complex (Extreme) or tricky (Insane)?
I haven't added these tech to any other helpers or strats yet.

I didn't edit the descriptions for spike suit or elevator CF.

blkerby
blkerby previously approved these changes Aug 24, 2025
Comment thread tech.json Outdated
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blkerby commented Aug 24, 2025

What do you think of these placements? Do you think bomb jump water escape should be part of complex (Extreme) or tricky (Insane)?

Playing around with it some more, I found that holding shot makes bomb jump water escape pretty safe and reasonable, so I would think Extreme should be fine. It could be worth taking a close look at the lava/acid applications in case maybe those should be Insane?

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  • canShinechargeMovement is very similar to canCarryFlashSuit so there could be a tie-in with complex shinechargemovement. tricky movement has a racing the timer element that would not be present in flash suits, unless heated.

  • Single grapple -> basic, chain grapple with unmorph or horizontal shot-> complex

  • Grapple jump with Hijump -> complex, no hijump -> tricky. But it depends on the situation too.

  • Jumping to morph and unmorph seems like complex, unless its through springball. The other cases you are already in falling state and then don't need to unmorph?

  • Changing state with a bomb boost is complex? Unless the situation makes it hard.

  • I'd like if it said to hold shot when jumping around underwater, but just saying that makes it easy to make the statement inaccurate. A lot of canCarryFlashSuit is on the player to practice moving around.

  • Anything with moderate platforming, or moving close to enemies while platforming goes in canComplexCarryFlashSuit

  • There is also a room/node/map tile/distance component to canCarryFlashSuit. But that isn't being written in to logic... so it doesn't need to be mentioned?

In RBO the hard rooms are 3 musketeers, UN farm, business center, main street, aqueduct, botwoon, everest.
In 100% the hard rooms are Red Tower, skree boost, business center, croc speedway

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osse101 commented Aug 24, 2025

some more

  • canUseIFrames is a common problem one. You try and jump too late or land weird and lose your spikesuit.
  • enemyDamage for similar reasons, unless you are morphing through the enemy. Just running through is ok.
  • canHorizontalDamageBoost, same thing, mistime it and lose it.
  • canLateralMidAirMorph is often a problem because you miss the morph and then lose the spikesuit. It may only be for cases where you are doing something in addition to morphing, like shooting a door open.
  • LeaveWhileSpaceJumping often lands close to the door frame and that's normally a problem. But maybe you would spin jump out of it?
  • bombjumpwaterescape didn't feel bad. Maybe iffy for expert, just has some quick button swapping but its very lenient. The lava dive room isn't any harder
  • Farm strats may need to go into complex. Anything with an up-shot does.

And there needs to be more heat frame leniency because your movements are going to be stiff the entire time.

Co-authored-by: Brent Kerby <blkerby@gmail.com>
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blkerby commented Aug 24, 2025

It's going to take some major work on the randomizer side to support a separate heat frame multiplier for flash suit. I was hoping to avoid that. But I can work on it. It would help solve some other problems with ammo/energy management (e.g. the case that comes up sometimes in Attic on Hard settings, where the randomizer is currently unable to properly explore both options of tanking damage and killing the enemies with ammo, since they are in the same strat in an or).

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blkerby commented Aug 24, 2025

If we are applying a separate heat multiplier for flash suit, I assume we can apply the same to farm cycles. And then any farms that specifically needed a mid-air up shot would need that added as a h_midAirShootUp requirement.

canUseIFrames and enemyDamage look like ones to keep an eye out for, in case of specific instances where they might create a problem. I don't think they're ones where it would have to be baked into the general requirements?

canLateralMidAirMorph seems like another borderline one, in that as long as you get the mid-air morph, having a flash suit doesn't affect anything. But if you miss the morph and then also release forward while still holding jump then you lose the flash suit. To me that seems more like a failure of basic canCarryFlashSuit movement, because this same risk applies any time you jump/spinjump and break spin; it's not specific to canLateralMidAirMorph. And in the case of canLateralMidAirMorph, even if the morph is tight you can still keep holding forward to be safe in case you miss it. There could maybe be specific scenarios where it's more of a problem though?

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osse101 commented Aug 24, 2025

Its possible its good enough to call spinbreaks, damage events, and mismorphs all player error when doing canCarryFlashSuit. It probably falls under Length of Time Carrying the Flash Suit, but some rooms are harder than others. Simple mistakes tend to be where you lose it, not because you were trying to do a trick at the same time. But that happens too.

Heatframes might need a deeper look since you can move pretty naturally with canTrickyCarryFlashSuit.
Cycleframes would take a bigger change since it would become putting yourself in a safe position before shooting. So canDodgeWhileShooting and canFarmWhileShooting aren't automatically safe for canCarryFlashSuit either.

mid-air up shot

Any upshot at all is a high source of mistakes. Moreso if there is some form of trivial platforming.

@blkerby blkerby merged commit a092bff into vg-json-data:master Aug 25, 2025
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@kjbranch kjbranch deleted the carry-flash branch September 12, 2025 22:43
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